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Live at BroadwayCon: The Legacy of Bob Fosse Transcript

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ELYSA GARDNER: Welcome to Stage Door Sessions, by Broadway Direct. In this podcast, we have in-depth conversations with Broadway’s brightest, bringing you what’s new, what’s noteworthy, and what’s coming next to a stage near you. Today we have a special program for you, recorded live at BroadwayCon recently, and devoted to one of Broadway’s true legends: Bob Fosse.

I need to start with a confession here: Many years ago I performed in amateur musicals, in high school and college and community theater—and I was what you call a singer who moved, which basically means, I was not a dancer. But, I was always in awe of dancers, of their incredible mix of artistry and athleticism. And that fascination eventually extended to choreographers, none more so than Bob Fosse, whose life always seemed to loom as large as his art—and that was especially true after I managed to sneak a look at All That Jazz while I was a kid.

Over the COVID shutdown I wrote a book about the Broadway musical Pippin, and I got an opportunity to speak at length with some of these amazing people, and to other dancers and choreographers who had worked with Bob Fosse; and as I did, and did my own research, I grew even more fascinated—by this story of this kid from Chicago who had asthma but was an athlete and a top student, and on top of that had this sort of secret life where he danced in burlesque clubs at night. And then he grew up and went to Hollywood and to Broadway, of course, where I think it’s safe to say he became as iconic as any choreographer before or since—not to mention a top director of everything from stage musicals to dramatic films.

For this panel, I was very lucky to be joined by a group of other extraordinary artists who can talk about Bob Fosse and his legacy from much more informed perspectives. This year would have marked Fosse’s 95th birthday, and as I’m sure many of you know, a Broadway-bound production of his 1978 musical Dancin’ had its world premiere at San Diego’s Old Globe Theatre recently to rave reviews. For this panel, we have, Wayne Cilento— who is also a veteran performer and choreographer himself, and danced in the original production— and several of the amazing young dancers in his company with us, along with two other dancers who worked with Fosse in their very tender years and have helped keep his legacy alive ever since.

Valarie Pettiford and Dana Moore are stage and screen veterans and founding reconstructeurs, as it’s called, at the Verdon Fosse Legacy, where they are entrusted to teach Fosse’s repertoire, technique, style, vocabulary and work ethic. That last one was very important, I’ve gathered.

Valarie was dance captain for Mr. Fosse’s last Broadway production of a new musical, 1986’s Big Deal. She later earned a Tony nomination for her performance in the original cast of the tribute Fosse, and her many other projects include FX’s limited series Fosse/Verdon, the American Dance Machine for the 21st Century and the Linda Mathas Institute for Performing Arts in Amsterdam. It is also Val’s birthday when we did this panel, so we felt especially privileged to have her on board.

Dana worked with Mr. Fosse both in the original production of Dancin’ and in his 1986 revival of Sweet Charity, and she also appeared in Fosse, as well as in the long-running Broadway revival of Chicago. Like Val, Dana helped reconstruct his choreography for Fosse/Verdon, and her other recent projects include the Career Transition for Dancers’ annual jubilee gala.

Wayne performed in the original casts of both Dancin’ and Big Deal, and the latter show premiered shortly after he choreographed and helped conceive Jerry’s Girls, a tribute to another Broadway legend, Jerry Herman. He has since choreographed a range of successful revivals and originals, including a 2005 staging of Sweet Charity, a 1995 production of How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying—a show that Fosse worked on in its original production—as well as The Who’s Tommy, Wicked, Aida and Dream, which Wayne also directed. And Wayne choreographed the Tupac tribute Holler if You Hear Me.

The three members of Wayne’s Dancin’ cast who joined us for the panel already have impressive stage and screen credits as well. Manuel Herrera appeared in the original Broadway casts of Wicked and Legally Blonde, as well as revivals of Sweet Charity, The Music Man, and West Side Story. Khori Petinaud was featured in the original Broadway casts of Aladdin and Moulin Rouge and her regional and tour credits include The Color Purple, In the Heights and Roman Holiday. And Ashley Blair Fitzgerald won a Chita Rivera Award performing in The Cher Show, and she’s also been seen on Broadway in Gigi and the 2014 revival of On The Town, and she won a Helen Hayes nomination touring in Twyla Tharp’s Come Fly Away.

I could say so much more about all of these artists, but why don’t we just get into the program, I hope you’ll enjoy it as much as I did.

Everybody, welcome, thank you for being here.

I want to start by discussing Bob Fosse’s style, because I think it’s kind of easy to oversimplify it. People think of jazz hands and hip bumps and hats, but there was so much more to it than that obviously. And when I was doing interviews for the book, I interviewed Bebe Neuwirth, who also worked with him later in his life, early in her career, and has since done some of his shows, and I want to read a quote from her that I think is really evocative and maybe you can embellish it or tell me what your feelings are. She said of Bob Fosse’s style, “It’s not about putting on some fishnet tights and bumping your hips around and being as sexy as you can. It can be very internal, and quite profound. There’s humor and there’s eccentricity and there’s irony—irony not just intellectually but physically; part of you is down and part of you is up. There is dark and light at all times, and many, many shades in between.” Anybody want to expand on that?

WAYNE CILENTO: We’re taking down our notes. [laughter] It’s a mystery, that’s what it comes down to. 

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Yeah, it goes far deeper than just steps.

WAYNE CILENTO: Totally.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Each show…there’s always an intent. It really defines who you are and your character when you go in those layers. And so yes, you have to have strong technique to do Fosse’s choreography. Everybody thinks it’s all turned in and, you know, slouching — uh uh uh, you have to have not only strong technique to execute the steps, but to survive, to do those shows eight times a week at that level. But what makes Fosse’s choreography so brilliant is the intent behind it. So you might see that teacup hand, but good God, what is that teacup hand saying in that particular moment in that particular show?

WAYNE CILENTO: Yeah, that’s exactly it.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: You know what I mean? That’s what makes the difference, that’s the specificity of his work, that’s the key. It’s not only that step, that high extension, whatever. It’s what are you saying, what story does Bob want to tell, and what he wants the audience to see and gather from it.

WAYNE CILENTO: The interesting thing that I found in all the research that I was doing for Dancin’ and it’s a hard monster to take on, to try to make it come back alive after 45 years. And there was so much going on at the time for him because it was his outlet to do anything he wanted and he did it as a dance concert piece so there was three acts, and it was all presentational but it was more like dance concert. So there wasn’t anything, there was no story, it was the beginning, the middle, and the end, blackout, new thing. New style, new color, I mean it wasn’t black, it was colorful. He did anything he wanted musically, choreographically, and the interesting part of it was, and this is what I’ve been trying to sort out my brain: obviously he loved really good talent and dancers. And dancers that were fully well-rounded in everything. And then I think if you put that into perspective, because when you look at the sixteen of us in the original company, we were from all different places, all different training, all different everything. So we weren’t Fosse dancers, we were just dancers. Incredible dancers. And I also think his approach — and I really tip my hat to you guys trying to recreate in the environment that you’re recreating because you’re recreating it in a studio, and that’s really hard. Me, it’s hard also, to recreate the show but it’s also all that subtext and all that internal meaning and emotion and motivation and “what’s the secret” and “what are you saying?” And “yes it’s this, but what are you saying?” So that makes you stand out because that other person is saying something else. And then your eye goes and catches the people that are totally into the moment. So, how do you do that in a studio? Because you’re teaching the steps and, you know, it’s more than the steps, because it was about his posture; he was hunched over a little bit, had a little bit of a turn in instead of a turn out, so that kind of did the whole thing for that. He was balding, he wore hats, he wore his head down, he was shy. All of that kind of contributed to, stylistically, who the man became. Of course, it got over-exaggerated in other moments when he wanted to get really into–like, in Pippin, that commercial where it’s so, kind of, specific. And it’s, you know, the intensity of what that is. But a lot of the other stuff is that it was what you brought to the table that intrigued him. And I don’t know what I did but he was very kind to me. You know, he just gave me opportunities, kept throwing stuff my way. I wasn’t a Fosse dancer but I was able to look at him, study him, and do my job as well as I could as a dancer because I just, I’m sure all of us could say, we love to dance. And when he knows that, he loves you. And he just follows that train. So it was just really interesting to go back and research who he was as a dancer, looking at those old movies, he had the intensity of keeping it still, intense, and really specific, and you never know what’s in your head. And then the explosion out of nowhere. It was like he pulled it back and then he exploded and yanked it back down again. And that was his dynamic, that was his thing. Ok, someone else talk. [laughter]

DANA MOORE: One thing that you, actually, just now kind of touched on that I wanted to also add to is that: the stillness. And that he wasn’t afraid of stillness. He, in fact, that was all part of the life of it. And you might be there for–I just remember rehearsing with Gwen, for “Spender” for Sweet Charity. And there was a lot of stillness in it. But she talked about how, you know, you’re not just waiting for her bus, of course, you’re there and there is a panther-like quality to that kind of still, but you got something really going on. She talked about a blender that was full, this solid casing, but it was, you had it packed full with all your goodies for that shake, and putting the lid on tight and then pushing at the highest. And that’s what it was. That life of it, you could be still for, you know, 20 counts of eight, if the life was there. And, not that he did 20 counts of eight ever, I don’t think.

WAYNE CILENTO: [laughter] No, 20 counts of eight felt like a three act play.

DANA MOORE: Because, exactly, and so that, not only in the stillness, but that was what fueled the moves. I mean you had to really work, I mean, we worked our butts off doing it over and over and over and refining his style. He needed it to be what was his style. So, you know, you couldn’t just, you know, work at it, you had to feel it and do it and do it and do it and do it. And he would say, “ok, again” and, you know, 500 times later, you think you couldn’t possibly do it again and then he says one little thing for you to tweak it or for you to think about it, for you to move slightly differently, and you do it again that 501st time, five-oh-one, however that’s said [laughter]. Um, but you would do it, and sure enough, maybe it took only 20 times, but whatever it was, you…

WAYNE CILENTO: You finally clicked in.

DANA MOORE: You clicked in. And then, that, just that repetition and repetition, so you could go on the stage and you already had it, you already owned it. And all the things like lights and costumes that are falling off of you, or your shoes are wrong or your wig or there’s a frickin’ audience out there, and all of those things that make you, um, kind of lose your cool, you’ve got that. You go on and all of those things, whatever happens, you still have that practiced and lived, and you have that little egg in your basket of “I can do this” and “I can do it just the way it’s supposed to be done.” And it’s an amazing feeling. An amazing feeling. Wonderful, magical feeling. And that’s working with Bob. That was, for me, anyway.

WAYNE CILENTO: Did you find that he was specific in his movement or specific in the intention?

DANA MOORE: Both.

WAYNE CILENTO: See, I find, well, see, every one of us has different experiences. Because my experience with Bob Fosse could be different from yours, yours, or Valarie’s. And I felt like he never pulled me apart. But that could’ve been because I was so keyed into him that I was pulling myself apart. But I never felt like it was, “your shoulder’s a little bit too high, you have to drop your shoulder, you have to focus over there, you have to pick up your head, you have to do it.” It wasn’t that.

DANA MOORE: No.

WAYNE CILENTO: And maybe it’s “put back” for some people when he can’t get the intention out of it. But if you’re, like, tuned in to what he’s trying to do, then you’re kind of almost home free. Never home, but you’re on your way. Right.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: It’s so true because when I came in to the First National Tour of Dancin’, it was Kathryn Doby…

WAYNE CILENTO: Oh, forget it.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: …Chris Chapman and Gwen Verdon that put us in the show. And so, and that goes into what Dana says about repetition, repetition — Thank God I learned Fosse from Kathryn. Because it just set me up for when Bob came in the room, you know what I mean.

WAYNE CILENTO: Then you’re already halfway there.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Then, you’re right. And then, see, I know, “I’ve worked with you, I’ve danced with you, I’ve seen you.” And so, it was, then you being within the original cast of Dancin’, and that’s what Bob loved. Once again, he chose people that loved dance as much as he does and that fit what, his criteria for that show. And you — it was always that in, like, every show. Uh, you know what I mean? And so, so yes. Those dancers got it. But when I did Big Deal and I became his Dance Captain, I saw another side of him. And so each dancer had to be tweaked a different way. What worked for Wayne might not have worked for Dana. You know what I mean?

WAYNE CILENTO: That’s exactly it.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: With Bruce Anthony Davis, he kept digging. But good God, by the time we hit opening night, Bruce…

WAYNE CILENTO: He was flying. [laughter]

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Bruce Anthony, flawless.

WAYNE CILENTO: Bruce was the guy that danced with me and beat me down.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Yeah. And so…

WAYNE CILENTO: Bob tortured him. Tortured him.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Yeah. But for whatever reason, but good God, opening night he was flawless. He was flawless. And so, to watch, for me, that’s a sign of a great director. To know what’s not going to work for choreo, you know. To get what he wants is the best thing out of you, for the show. It’s about the show. It’s never about, “Oh my God, I got stories, I got stories, I got stories.”

KHORI PETINAUD: Speaking to that, too, because my introduction to Fosse was the Verdon Fosse Estate with y’all and taking class and breaking down each individual step. And I really appreciated that because what it allowed for me to do in, now, this part of my career in doing Dancin’ and working on his material now is that I feel like I have access to myself in a way that is so much more expansive than it was when I first was introduced to his movement. And I feel that his style is just so iconic in that way because once you understand the intention, you can literally fly. It’s the best feeling. But I do think that, because of my introduction to it, I couldn’t access that until I understood that this is why he’s doing this step. And you have to understand why in order to really make it come through and to tell the story accurately.

WAYNE CILENTO: Absolutely. Absolutely.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Yeah. I mean, it was interesting, for me, working with Bob, going to a show that was already set up, you’re at Dancin’. Right? So that was one Bob. And then working with Bob on a brand new show and him coming up with ideas. I mean, he was so insecure. I remember because I was part of his skeleton crew and eh came in and he was like, “oh God, I gotta do better. I just saw Song and Dance and I gotta do better.” And we’re looking at him like, “you’re Bob Fosse, what do you mean you gotta do better?” [laughter] What do you mean you gotta do better? You know what I mean? And he just, that, you know, Moon Child, Bob, you know, June 22. Very Cancerian trait. We just feel that we’re the worst, so I get it. I totally get it. But yeah, so.

WAYNE CILENTO: What I found out after doing Dancin’, then I started choreographing, and I was pretty much into it for much eight years and then Bob calls me up and says, “I’m doing a new show. Would you wanna do it?” And it’s Big Deal. I said, “of course.” So, I was the size of this table, so I was like “ok, I’ll get in shape, I’ll do this.” [laughter] But, the thing that I liked because I was so tired and beat up because I was doing The Act and Dancin’ at the same time, it made me pull back and focus. Because I had no energy left. So I needed to really focus and watch everything that he did so that when I got up on the floor, I was on my gig and then I could sit back and then watch again. There was no talking for me. I talked to no one. No socialization. And I’m, I’m a jerk off when I’m — I’m the first one to make people laugh, big mouth, and not me; quiet. [laughter] So, but, I don’t know if you feel this way, but when we got into Big Deal, and being away from him for eight years, and then him doing his movie, and the way he edits and the way he choreographs and takes shots and put the things together. I think Sweet Charity, “The Frug” is so brilliantly edited, it’s, you know, you can’t do that. You know, like, on stage. I mean, you can but you can’t. But I felt like his film experience and the way he crafted Big Deal was the music was integrated with the choreography, the choreography was integrated with the scene work, everything blended and flowed like a film. And he was crossfading. And it never stopped. And I thought,”Wow, this is so different.” And he was using Bruce and I as the transitions becasue we were the narrators and we were dancing our asses off up on the platforms, down the steps, and somehting was moving in, and then it would go into the scene, we’d like cross our hat and go away, and then come back. It was a movie.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Big Deal was way ahead of its time. That’s why it didn’t succeed because people didn’t know. They were like, “wait a minute, I’m supposed to look here, I’m supposed to look there, I’m supposed to…” You know what I mean? Nowadays, it’s like, oh, the norm. But doing what he did, what Fosse did back then in 1986, they didn’t know what to — and they complained about it, it was too dark and blah, blah blah. And the whole thing.

WAYNE CILENTO: Do another Dancin’ 2, don’t do this.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Right. But that show was set up like a movie. Totally.

DANA MOORE: This so reminds me of a conversation that we could all have about Chicago. Again, ahead of its time in 1975.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: They didn’t know what to do with that.

WAYNE CILENTO: The original Chicago or Annie’s Chicago?

DANA MOORE: No, the original. I’m talking about. And it didn’t do as well as it should have. But it, when it came back as the revival, now, all of a sudden, it’s like the biggest hit. You know.

WAYNE CILENTO: Well, I mean, you know, I talk to Nicole about this and I don’t know if you guys know–

ELYSA GARDNER: His daughter, Nicole Fosse?

WAYNE CILENTO: Yes. Nicole Fosse. Sorry, we’re having our conversation. [laughter] And, you know, it’s really interesting because I feel like Chicago is brilliant, I have to say, she did a great job. But she was Ann Reinking, I’m Wayne Cilento, you’re Valarie Pettiford. You’re Dana Moore. We all dance differently. And we can all teach the same material. But it’s going to come out different through our bodies. And it’s not to say who’s right or who’s wrong because I think you’re right, you have to get the intention there, you have the director to check, to make it all clear. But, it’s gonna be different. So Annie did that show and was very successful. But Annie did it and she set it in the style of Bob Fosse. Which became Bob Fosse. And that’s a big problem. And I said that to Nicole. I said, “you know that Chicago is a big problem for us because now when we go back, when we go back to doing Dancin’ with the freedom of dancers dancing the way Bob Fosse dances, “well wait, where’s the wedge? Why aren’t they perfectly doing the same moves together? How come they don’t have Derbys on? How come they’re not in black lingerie? Why? Where is the slickness?” Well, he didn’t do that. So, we’re fighting against himself in a way because that was part of him. But then when you look at the Alley Dance, or if you look at the Snake Dance, and you watch Bob Fosse dance, you go, “oh my God. This stuff is unbelievably brilliant.” He was brilliant.

KHORI PETINAUD: And even the stuff he did with Gwen, like Mexican Breakfast, like that’s so colorful and fun and the comedy.

WAYNE CILENTO: The comedy. Just like, let go.

KHORI PETINAUD: That’s the thing I really love. Yes, yes. Like, it’s so much humor in his movement and I think Chicago is, is just like, it’s one facet of a very multifaceted human in so many different ways.

DANA MOORE: But, in 1975, it was not.

WAYNE CILENTO: It wasn’t. They had half man, half woman. Right? How far ahead is he?

DANA MOORE: Yes. And just the idea that, um, murderers are being celebrated. You know, I mean, that didn’t happen in 1975. But now, celebrities…you know…become.

WAYNE CILENTO: Yeah, totally. But you’re right.

DANA MOORE: People didn’t think that cynicism, that kind of irony, that kind of, yeah, sense of cynicism was not, it was not popular. It just wasn’t in the fabric.

WAYNE CILENTO: But he was pushing the buttons. Of course, like he always does.

DANA MOORE: Yes. So by the time it was revived…it was like oh, of course.

ELYSA GARDNER: One thing — oh, not at all, not at all, I should just let you talk. I mean, you’re all saying such interesting things and I have like a million follow up questions in my head. But one thing I definitely wanted to mention, that rings true with what a lot of you are saying, is that he saw dancers as actors. As storytellers. I mean, you know, someone like Jerome Robbins was famous for that. But because of Fosse’s, you know, because there were elements of his style that were kind of, uh, easy to exaggerate or oversimplify, maybe he didn’t get enough credit for that. And he also, something else I got from talking to dancers was that he — while his, they preferred the term “sensual” to “sexual.” That he was never vulgar. That, you know, he preferred…

DANA MOORE: It might have been, what might be a, you know, a vulgar environment or something. But his work and the characters had way more colors than — and the movement, the movement was never vulgar. We were never asked to be. It just wasn’t that.

WAYNE CILENTO: No, you’re right.

ELYSA GARDNER: And that discretion was important too.

WAYNE CILENTO: It was never vulgar.

DANA MOORE: Never vulgar. Exactly.

WAYNE CILENTO: The approach was there. But it wasn’t like, “I’m gonna take my clothes off and come over there and get you.” You kind of, like, eased your way over and like, “oh shit. Something’s happening here.”

ELYSA GARDNER: And the importance of discretion and discipline, you know, as you’re pulling back and then letting out and making, the way someone described it to me was, “it wasn’t look at me. The dancers weren’t supposed to say “look at me.” They were supposed to have the audience come to them. To draw the audience in.

WAYNE CILENTO: Well, that’s the whole thing about performance. I don’t think he ever told us to perform. It was always internal or something that was going on on the stage, or something. But it was never presentational. And that’s hard. That’s a contradiction in dancing because we’re facing out. So you could take that to a whole other place.

DANA MOORE: It’s like Dancin’, where, you know, the curtain opens and we’re all there.

WAYNE CILENTO: But if you’re praying.

DANA MOORE: Exactly. So we’re not selling it.

WAYNE CILENTO: Gotta pass that.

DANA MOORE: We are living it.

WAYNE CILENTO: Totally. That’s totally it. And he really got it. He got when people were mysterious and were thinking maybe something completely different, but I think it intrigued him to go, “what is she thinking about right now?” And it could be anything. But you got his attention. Yeah.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: And he would get this grin on his face when you were doing right. When you, when he saw his vision come into play, oh my God, he would get this look on his face and this grin and you would see the grin and you would just light up because you knew you were doing what he wanted. That you got it. Right? Oh my God. It was…

WAYNE CILENTO: That’s the best. Or, when you’re doing your thing, and you pick your head up and he’s staring at you and staring at you and you go, “oh shit.” 

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Cigarette hanging out of his mouth, smoke in his…

WAYNE CILENTO: It’s either good or bad! But it’s that, right?

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Yeah, oh my God. It was just…it was, yeah, because you were working. I’ve never worked so hard in my life. I have never worked so hard in my life. It was like 24/7. And we would come out of that rehearsal dragging. I mean, it was like, you would pray that you would be able to get up the next day and dance. And you would do it all over again. And do it all over again. Because by the time you hit that stage, you were so prepared. And like Dana said, you know, when things go wrong, that costume piece falls, that set piece does not move, remember in Big Deal, that piece that doesn’t move? [laughter] You still gotta work around. You still gotta give the wonderful paying audience a full, fabulous show. But you were so ready because he prepared you for that. And his assistants and stuff prepared you for that.

ELYSA GARDNER: And is it true that he also encouraged improvisation to an extent, even though he had, of course, the final say? 

WAYNE CILENTO: Hmm, I don’t know about that.

ELYSA GARDNER: Someone told me that. [laughter]

WAYNE CILENTO: Yeah, there was no improvisation. [laughter]

ELYSA GARDNER: Really?

WAYNE CILENTO: I’ll tell you a story. I’ll tell you a really quick story. I don’t wanna be self-indulgent but he said to me, “Wayne, I need you to get up that ramp and get over to the other side.” I said, “but I have no time.” He said, “just do it.” I said, “Ok.” So, of course, I’m doing it with Bob Fosse, within an inch of his life. And I’m being mysterious and I’m crawling and stuff and I get up to the top, I’m going, “yes, I did this!” And he comes up to me and he goes, “that was brilliant. You can never do that again.” [laughter] Because I can’t watch anything else that’s going on on the stage. [laughter]

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Right! Yeah, that’s right.

WAYNE CILENTO: You told me to do it. I did it. [laughter] I did it like you, I wasn’t doing me. 

VALARIE PETTIFORD: The only improv that I remember is when we were giving, when I helped him give auditions, or when we were auditioning, he would say, you know, “what else you got?” So after you’ve gone through the Tea for Two, then the combination of whatever the show was, and then you sang, and if you were reading for a role then you would read. But then he says, “ok, what else you got?” And so whoever, you know, could play the piano, or guitar, tricks, I know I was a jumper so I did a whole jumping combination. People who could, whoever, twirl and spin and stuff, that was the only improv. I don’t remember no improv.

ELYSA GARDNER: I guess maybe during rehearsal. Someone, I think the exact, or close to the exact words were, he would say, “do your best today because tomorrow it’s mine.” You know, show me what you got today to kind of…maybe not. [laughter] Oh well.

WAYNE CILENTO: That was a trick to kind of make you feel like you’re free, but you still never will be. I remember I just know that, it’s interesting, Bob and Michael Bennett. Bob did every single step. It was out of his body. Michael Bennett had five dancers that he threw in a room and said, “come up with stuff.”

DANA MOORE: Really? Oh, I didn’t know that.

WAYNE CILENTO: I was one of them. And then he would edit us, and then get a combination and go, “eh, I don’t know. Fix that. Do something else over there. Go out of the room, come back. Do that. Ok, teach it to the company.” That was Michael. Bob — Kathy would go over to Bob and say, “Bob we should–” Chris would go over to Bob and say, “Bob, maybe we should–” No. They sat like this. [laughter]

DANA MOORE: Yes. Exactly. Yes.

WAYNE CILENTO: And then they would get up on the floor and they would go, “your hand’s not right, maybe you gotta slow, maybe you gotta lean over there, could you pick up your hand a little bit more?” You know, they would try to do stuff like that. Move over a little bit. But, they would…he would kill ’em.

ELYSA GARDNER: Yeah. Well, given that, how do you approach Dancin’, bringing his material to — and I wanna hear from the dancers in the company as well.

WAYNE CILENTO: You know, it’s so difficult. Because what I try to do and I kind of said this at the end when we closed in San Diego…Annie was Annie, I’m me, she’s Valarie, she’s Dana. I held myself back from getting on the floor which I think I did a disservice for the company because it’s just like, I’m gonna dance it and it’s gonna be not necessarily perfectly Bob, but it’s gonna be definitely rooted in what Bob did. But I didn’t wanna like, drill them on that level because I wanted them to come out in themselves. You know. So, we taught those steps and material and, of course, we had to get really specific in “Dancin’ Man” at one point. We let it go, we let it go, and then it was like, ok, we gotta fix this. So I mean, you get to the point where it’s just not lining up so we have to be really specific. And they appreciated it when we finally got to the place where, “this arm is too high, get it over here, get your angles on this shoulder.” I mean, you actually have to do that sometimes. And I felt like I had to do a little bit of that in “Sing, Sing, Sing” because that vocabulary goes down the tubes as the attack of the contraction and that little hook thing. And when your body stays up and you’re kind of like doing this, and you’re doing this, and your body’s completely erect — it’s not the number. So that. Try to do that. But so, I don’t know, I got into a crack about not overdoing it, not over-breaking it down, not over-analyzing every single thing because I was giving them…I wanted them to make his work come alive again. I wanted this to be a new sixteen incredible dancers that are doing his work, and they did. And just bring it up to a level where his work could be timeless. Come on, let’s face it, some of the stuff in “Crunchy Granola” and stuff; it’s repetitious. You know, it goes on and on and on, and it’s just about them pulling it off but the energy and the enthusiasm and just loving to fly across that floor that’s gonna make it come up to this level where you go, “oh my God, this looks incredible.” And fixing the music a little bit, but not over-fixing the music, it was hard. It’s a hard thing.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: It’s a fine line. But I’m just all of the school with Bob, especially because, when you were asking what reconstructeurs do, you know what I mean. We actually have been given the honor and the privilege of reconstructing full numbers. Now, a lot of this stuff is not on tape. A lot of the stuff is, you know, you have to go through notes and stuff like that. Or there are different versions because Bob put it differently on different people. You know, Donna McKechnie didn’t do what Gwen did in Charity and stuff. And rightfully so. You have to bring out each person’s strength. But I always believe that, you know, with dong the repetition, repetition, repetition, getting it into the body and stuff like that first, so you can be free. You know what I mean? Know where the root is. Get it down to a science. And then you can let go, because, you know what I mean. But yeah. You just, you have to walk that fine line. As far as reconstrucing goes, that’s what I was getting back to, so imagine taking a number like “Dancin’ Man” and putting that number up and on another company, like one I did in Amsterdam, and that’s what we do. We literally look at tapes, every inch, every step. What did Gwen do, what did Chita do, what did blah, blah, blah. And try to go back to what his original intent was. And then put it on a company, a group of people, a beautiful Khori, a beautiful Ashley, I did not have the beautiful Manny in my class. Uh, Dana and I. But, and then in a class form, or taking it to like a LaGuardia school, Lloyd Culbreath would take “Sing, Sing, Sing” and put it up. And so that’s what we did, and that’s what the original intent of the Legacy was: to try to get the choreography back to its original intent. And like Wayne said, nothing is right or wrong…there’s a new version, that version, your version of Dancin‘ is different from my version of Dancin’ was different from my version of Dancin‘…you the one that, you know, originated it. But getting it back to what was Bob’s original intent, what was Bob’s real meaning — not real meaning, but was the hand that way, that way? And we painstakingly went back and, what I do say is, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

DANA MOORE: Yes.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Bob’s choreography don’t need any help.

DANA MOORE: No. Exactly.

WAYNE CILENTO: That’s right.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: When you go back to that original intent, when we went and looked at some of the original footage of Chicago, good God. It’s brilliant! You don’t need to fix anything. You don’t need to add another head roll, a head bop. Cassie, stop bopping your head. You don’t need any of that. You don’t need any of that.

WAYNE CILENTO: But also, getting back to what you said. I mean, all the choreography is exactly what Bob Fosse did. There is no improvisation, there is no flexibility, there’s nothing. The numbers are the numbers. Did I stage some of the stuff a little bit differently? Like, you know the section in “Sing, Sing, Sing” when the six people come out and it’s like two, two, and two, and they’re doing [hums] –

DANA MOORE: Clarinet solo.

WAYNE CILENTO: What is it?

DANA MOORE: Clarinet.

WAYNE CILENTO: Clarinet. I just felt that if I turned them in. I try this, you turn them in and the women into each other. When you’re doing this, one’s going this way, one’s going that way, and it goes like this…They all line up and it all comes back together, but it feels like they’re on a dance floor as opposed to presentational. And it’s exactly his choreography. And I feel like it’s hard to do, like, his format was dance concert format, so everything was lined up. [hums to a beat] Go. Next person. You know what I mean? It’s difficult to make it come alive in a different way, environment sort of a thing. So I’ve tweaked some things.

DANA MOORE: But it’s still his work.

WAYNE CILENTO: Yeah. And you can’t believe the difference.

DANA MOORE: Yeah. I can’t wait. I can’t wait.

ELYSA GARDNER: Well, Khori and Ashley and Manny, tell me a little bit about — no, no, no, this is, I just wanna hear…Sure, go right ahead.

DANA MOORE: I just wanna say one thing and it reminds me of what we’re talking about. Doing Dancin’ or doing Sweet Charity, there was always, you could always tell if Mr. Fosse was in the house. [laughter] You know, there was always like someone caught a glimpse of him behind standing room in the theaters, and he was pacing. And, you knew. You’re gonna have a rehearsal the next day. [laughter] And, sure enough, a rehearsal was called the next day to take out all of the improvements of his choreography. [laughter]

WAYNE CILENTO: There you go. There you go. Yeah, that’s the truth.

ELYSA GARDNER: Well that seems like a good segue-way into asking the three of you what particular…what did his work mean to you before, you know, as you were becoming dancers, and what particular challenges or thrills have you gotten from working on this material?

ASHLEY BLAIR FITZGERALD: I’ll go. So, I started working on Bob’s material when I was 13. With Gwen and Ann. 

ELYSA GARDNER: That’s Gwen Verdon and Ann Reinking. Whose last names are not necessary… [laughter]

ASHLEY BLAIR FITZGERALD: Gwen and Ann! Um, and, I will say that I had that experience from 13 to 18 and then I did Fosse, a tour of it. And then, a couple years later, I met Valarie and Dana and Lloyd and got to experience it as a professional performer. So I was a student the first time I experienced it, then I was a professional performer…quotation marks around that. And then there’s, that got me, it’s always about going back to the work. And I think that, I’ve never actually made that much money off of Fosse, it’s never been like a job, it’s always been a safe place for me to find who I am as a performer in that time of my life. And it’s always helped me come out the other side smarter, stronger, and a different performer. And now, I’m doing this Dancin‘ and it’s, I’ve now had two children, I’m now an adult, again, quotation marks around that. And, I am approaching it very differently than I did from when I was 13. But I still take those stories with me. I still take the story of walking in to Gwen Verdon’s class and not really knowing what I was supposed to be doing because I was a little bit late and we were doing “Cool Hand Luke” and she just pointed at me to come in and do it. And I was like, “oh, ok, I don’t know it, but ok,” in my head. And then I went to do the first Port de Bras, and I had my knee turned in. “Stop, stop, stop, stop. This is not Vegas.” And I was like, “ok.” She goes, “that knee is turned out.” And she goes, “go back and learn in the corner.” And I was like, “I will gladly go back in the corner and learn.” [laughter] And that was my first experience with that and God, that woman could dance at 73, 75, I don’t know how old she was. But Geez Louise, she was just — and like you said, just sitting and watching and taking in and experiencing and intellectually, internally, and then coming out. Like, there’s steps that I, with “Big Noise” you stood up in the audition. We’re on a podcast, so I’m talking to Wayne. [laughter] You stood up in the audition and he did this hip thing and I was like, “oh my God, so many questions were just answered in that one movement!” Everybody has a different experience with it and I have been blessed with meeting literally everybody but the man. Like, it’s the one thing that I’ll never – maybe one day, I’ll meet him, you know, and that’ll be great and I’ll get to learn so much more then. But for now, it’s just been a never-ending place of learning and growing and like finding who I am as a performer in that time. And I am so thankful for each and every one of you and having that experience.

WAYNE CILENTO: So, it’s layers.

ASHLEY BLAIR FITZGERALD: And it’s never-ending.

WAYNE CILENTO: And the layers keep coming.

KHORI PETINAUD: That’s so beautiful.

WAYNE CILENTO: What about you, Manny?

ASHLEY BLAIR FITZGERALD: What about you, Manny?

MANUEL HERRERA: Hi. Hi. [laughter] I have a very interesting — firstly, I come from a very homegrown studio. My grandfather was a tap dancer, my grandmother was a ballet dancer, my mom was jazz and tap, and my uncle kind of did a lot of the business end of it. So I come from a homegrown studio and the one thing I remember growing up, for me, was getting as much diversity and versatility in my body as possible. So much so that, like, we did Cecchetti, we did Giordano, we did Luigi, I also did Irish step dancing, and then I came to New York at 14 to go to School of American Ballet. And so, I had an arsenal of stuff and I always remember with Fosse, I didn’t have the right information. I didn’t have the right relationship because I saw it in a way where the movement, and as a male dancer, I was always pushed, “be more like a man, stop dancing like a girl,” and that was just my upbringing, not everyone’s. And so, I didn’t understand Fosse very well at the time when I first saw it because I was like, “oh, it’s a very kind of feminine way of moving, I don’t feel comfortable doing that because that’s my background.” But then, it was interesting when I finally got to see his work on him, you know. When I saw him do the Alley Dance, when I saw him do the Snake Dance, I realized it was those dancers approach, just the way they move naturally. And I finally realized that I could do it in my body. And that’s really what Fosse — I didn’t work with him, I think he’s well beyond, I mean…I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a choreographer that understood text and story and understanding that it doesn’t go outside of it. When I’m in a musical, this is the thing and it furthers the story as opposed to, ok, here’s the dance number, and then we come back to the acting and the singing. It literally just all is one. And that’s what was so brilliant about him. And when you go back and look at his work, nothing looked like it was out of place. Everything was just like, that’s exactly what it should be. Um, and I guess my relationship now with the Fosse work is that I realize that I can embody his soul and his soul and his being and his essence as long as I’m true to myself and the movement, and that my intention is clear.

DANA MOORE: Beautifully said.

KHORI PETINAUD: That is beautiful.

WAYNE CILENTO: That’s the key, though.

MANUEL HERRERA: And so I think that, I don’t know, I mean, I have such a healthy relationship with dance now, especially as a grown up, as a father, as, you know, I finally figured out who I am. And, you know, I worked with Denis O’Hara on Sweet Charity with Wayne Cilento and, um, Walter Bobbie, and I remember Denis said something to me that I take with me in my life, in my career, dancing, acting, everything. He’s like, “you know, the people that you really wanna admire and look up to, those people are just people that really understand who they are and what they bring to the table.” And one thing I do have to say is that there is something that your generation — Wayne, Valarie, Dana — that, I don’t know, when I go back and look at footage of you guys, it’s just mind-blowing. There is something that dancers these days, now, granted, dancers these days may have more technique, more things that are available to them because, as generations go on, but there is one thing missing. And the missing thing is that you guys dance with your soul. Your entire body, and, you know, that’s something that, for me, honestly, I feel so much pressure in this show because, just thinking about the people that were before me. You know, the giants that were before me. I mean, dancers back in your generation are like royalty, and icons, and we don’t really have that in this generation yet. But I do believe that, I’m hoping that, will get it back. Because you guys are incredible.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Well, I haven’t seen you dance, but…

ASHLEY BLAIR FITZGERALD: He’s amazing.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Wait. Wait. Y’all ain’t seen nothing yet. Woo. They’re your giants, these are…you’re there, baby. Beautifully said, beautifully said.

KHORI PETINAUD: And I think, sorry…hello, podcast. [laughter] Just sort of riffing off of that, I mean, when I was introduced to the Verdon Fosse Legacy, it changed my life. It literally changed my life. Because up until that point, I was a bunhead, I was like, “I’m gonna be a ballerina,” I’m doing Horton, I’m doing, like, very pulled up, and I was always wearing a black leotard and pink tights to class, and that’s just like what I did. And I remember, like, when I was making the transition into musical theatre and I would go into these auditions and like, I just had my hair in a bun and I just was like, “why can’t I just like be a good dancer,” and like, auditioning for Hairspray with your hair in a bun. Like, it’s hilarious. [laughter] But I just felt like I was just trying so hard to fit into these boxes that I thought were in this musical theatre world. And when I stepped into that class for the first time, I felt like I finally figured it out. Like when I saw them doing this movement and I started to put it on myself, I was like, “oh my gosh, this is the thing that has been missing.” And it was the key to unlocking myself. And it still is. And even in, I’m like dipping my baby toe into choreography, and in the work that I create, it it so heavily inspired by Bob’s work because the subtlety and the stillness is where I thrive, and I didn’t know that about myself until I was introduced into his work. And then especially in this moment for me now, being a mom, and doing “Sweet Gwen, Sweet,” which is a series of works that Gwen and Bob did together that we premiered at New York City Center, and that was my first job coming out of the shutdown, my first job after having a baby, and to be able to do “Cool Hand Luke,” which was the solo that Bob made for Gwen right after she had had Nicole, which was such a beautiful moment for me to be able to reconnect with her in that way, and reconnect to him in that way of being able to do that movement as a mom now. And approaching his movement as a mom is also something that’s so thrilling and incredible. So, I just, his work changed my life and the Legacy specifically changed my life because, I just, working with those dancers. Like, coming in and working with Ashley and seeing dancers who had done this work before, but the way we would come out of those like four hour workshops and we’d like broke down and sweaty, but we were so happy to be there because it was just so thrilling to get to break down his material like that and to talk about intention. And to be an actor, because we are actors, and I think in the theatre world sometimes, unfortunately, the ensemble specifically is not given the agency as actors. And we are actors. We are the ones who create the world. And so, to be able to do a show like Dancin’ where, it really encourages us to tap into that fully, because dancers are actors, it’s really beautiful. And to know that we can carry a whole show, being that, is just the most thrilling thing ever. It really is. [applause]

ELYSA GARDNER: So great. Um, does anyone know what time it is? Oh, it’s 4:38. Oh my goodness, wow. Oh goodness, do we have to–

VALARIE PETTIFORD: She’s like, end. End this sucker! [laughter]

ELYSA GARDNER: Oh Gosh, I was hoping to get some questions.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Can I say one really quick thing, because this is really important especially in the times that we are living in. I just wanna say this, Bob was colorblind. Meaning, didn’t care if you were Black, white, green, or purple. If you could twirl, and do your thing the way he wanted, that’s the way it was. Our First National Tour of Dancin’ was the first show that, and hopefully I’m correct about this, I know I am. It was the first show that was considered a white show, because originally it was only a Black female and a Black male. And that’s the way it was back then. You would have one Black guy and one Black girl. That was it. Our company was the first time to have five Black principals. Five. Five of us.

WAYNE CILENTO: And that was like right from New York, right? They changed it right up. Right then.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Yeah. And that’s one thing, another reason why I love Bob. It was more about the talent and he went totally against the grain. And I just wish more people would think that way.

ELYSA GARDNER: I got that too.

DANA MOORE: Also, in Sweet Charity, the same thing, the revival that we did in ’86 and Bob was putting it together, Debbie Allen was playing Charity. And, I mean, the Spender bar, and the gentlemen, I mean, it was, again, it was whoever – it was sizes, all sizes. The men, I mean, Quinn Bare, and then, you know, Jeff Shade. Um, but, again, it was like no other show that I’d ever done at that time and then after, where it was just whoever was the most talented, or the right character. Or the right combination of things. Didn’t matter. 

WAYNE CILENTO: I guess we have so many issues to deal with in the social commenting that he did in Dancin’ that everybody thinks there was no message. There was a message in everything that he did. There was always sarcasm in the message. Simple, just a little bit of twist it to the side so you have to go, really? What was that? And so you go on with the next number and stuff, so, casting the show was one hell of a job. I had every ethnic combination, every interesting beautiful person you could possibly think of, man, woman, everything. I don’t even know the terminology because I’m an old man. But, you know, I’m afraid I’m gonna get arrested, so. But, do you know what I mean? But I actually think it just lifted the whole situation up to a whole other level.

VALARIE PETTIFORD: So you follow what Bob did. Bob did the same. That’s what I’m saying, Bob did the same thing. It wasn’t about you had to be this, you had to be that, it was, you do the job, are you fierce. Yes. I’ll put you in. You’re brilliant.

DANA MOORE: And also, can I work with you?

VALARIE PETTIFORD: Yes, that was really important to him.

DANA MOORE: I remember him talking about, you know, auditions and he could have the most incredibly technical, crafted dancer come. And could do his work, and just was like cream of the crop, would have hired this person, except what the person didn’t have was, I guess, a kind of humility. They kind of came in and knew it already. They kind of, like, it’s all insecurities I’m sure. But he just said, I would love to hire that person but I cannot work with them. And I have to hire people I can work with.

ELYSA GARDNER: Yeah. This all rings very true based on what I heard as well, and there are so many facets to him that I think we have to do another Fosse panel and schedule at least three hours of time. [laughter] Maybe we could have a break, like an intermission in between. But I’m very excited to see Dancin’ now. I’m so sorry we did not get to any questions, but I’m certainly not sorry that we had all the insights we did onstage. So thank you so, so much. [applause] 

VALARIE PETTIFORD: And thank you for having us.

WAYNE CILENTO: There’s no stopping us from talking. [laughter]

ELYSA GARDNER: I could stay here!

[outro music]

ELYSA GARDNER: Hope you enjoyed our special live podcast. For all things Broadway, and to find tickets to your next show, visit BroadwayDirect.com. If you liked our show, please follow us on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And don’t forget to share and rate Stage Door Sessions so fellow theater fans can find us. This podcast is produced by Broadway Direct and the Nederlander Organization with Iris Chan, Erin Porvaznik-Wagner, and Paul Art Smith, and hosted and produced by me, Elysa Gardner. Thank you for listening, and we look forward to seeing you again on Broadway.